GRDIII vs. GRDII vs. GRD - B&W side by side photos

[odklizec]

As you probably recognized, this is a B&W comparison It's evident that GRDIII B&W is greatly improved over GRDII, but still way behind the GRDI. It's all about the noise reduction, or better said, the lack of thereof in case of GRDI JPEG. GRDII, on the other hands, produces seriously smeared files. The noise reduction destructive work is well visible in shadows, but the the photos are generally softer. GRDIII does much less aggressive noise reduction in JPEG and so the B&W photos looks grainier. But still not as nice as GRDI B&W. My GRDI lens developed slight corner unsharpness, so the photos looks visibly softer in corners. GRDIII produces excellently sharp images from corner to corner (well, if correctly focused) but there is still room for improvements.

I understand Ricoh's reasons for implementing noise reduction in color JPEGs. But I think there is no reason for it in B&W photos and should be optionally turned off. People who shot in B&W usually like grainy and somewhat rough output. And this is exactly what's delivered by GRDI. Ricoh should consider turning the NR OFF at least in B&W JPEG.

I personally think that despite the great improvement of GRDIII B&W (JPEG) engine, it's still better to process the RAW. See for example Wouter's blog with many examples of extremely nice B&W conversions:
http://wouter28mm.wordpress.com/2009/09 ... pressions/

100% crops (GRDI upscalled to 10MP):

Here you can see why so many users still prefer GRDI B&W files over both GRDII and GRDIII. Despite smaller native resolution (and if properly upscaled), GRDI shows much more details than both GRDII (worst) and GRDIII BW JPEG, which is mainly due to non-existing noise reduction in case of GRDI files.

bw1.png (191.06 KiB) Viewed 10648 times

full resolution:
_1070884.jpg

_1070884_sm.jpg (351.36 KiB) Viewed 10397 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:50 pm

Focus length: 6 mm

Shutter speed: 1/90 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 100

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 3

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: 0 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069722.jpg

_1069722_sm.jpg (331.06 KiB) Viewed 10464 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:56 pm

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/18 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 100

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 2

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: 0 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069653.jpg

_1069653_sm.jpg (349.01 KiB) Viewed 10557 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:45 pm

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/36 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 100

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR Digital

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: 3/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1070886.jpg

_1070886_sm.jpg (298.14 KiB) Viewed 10971 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:57 pm

Focus length: 6 mm

Shutter speed: 1/760 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 3

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: 3/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069724.jpg

_1069724_sm.jpg (279.85 KiB) Viewed 10555 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:12 pm

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/176 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 2

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: 3/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069655.jpg

_1069655_sm.jpg (295.47 KiB) Viewed 11042 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:01 pm

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/870 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR Digital

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: 3/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1070894.jpg

_1070894_sm.jpg (493.68 KiB) Viewed 10620 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:39 am

Focus length: 6 mm

Shutter speed: 1/97 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 3

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: -1/1 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069732.jpg

_1069732_sm.jpg (483.56 KiB) Viewed 10670 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:55 am

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/52 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 2

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: -3/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069662.jpg

_1069662_sm.jpg (475.63 KiB) Viewed 10697 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:44 am

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/48 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR Digital

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: -7/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1070901.jpg

_1070901_sm.jpg (326.5 KiB) Viewed 11213 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:00 am

Focus length: 6 mm

Shutter speed: 1/760 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 3

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: -7/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069736.jpg

_1069736_sm.jpg (284.71 KiB) Viewed 11326 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:10 am

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/760 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 2

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: -7/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069667.jpg

_1069667_sm.jpg (345.57 KiB) Viewed 11721 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:00 am

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/760 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR Digital

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: -7/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

100% crops (GRDI upscalled to 10MP):

Here you can see how strong noise reduction is applied over GRDII and GRDIII files and how good looks the GRDI BW crop at pixel level, despite much higher level of noise and upscaling to 10MP.

bw2.png (191.11 KiB) Viewed 10318 times

full resolution:
_1070904.jpg

_1070904_sm.jpg (324.96 KiB) Viewed 11783 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:11 am

Focus length: 6 mm

Shutter speed: 1/84 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 400

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 3

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: 0 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069737.jpg

_1069737_sm.jpg (317.09 KiB) Viewed 11870 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:20 am

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/68 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 400

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR DIGITAL 2

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: -3/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

full resolution:
_1069668.jpg

_1069668_sm.jpg (356.36 KiB) Viewed 11908 times

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EXIF-Data

Image taken on: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:10 am

Focus length: 5.9 mm

Shutter speed: 1/73 Sec

F-number: F/4.5

ISO speed rating: 400

Whitebalance: Auto

Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

Camera-model: GR Digital

Exposure program: Aperture priority

Exposure bias: -3/10 EV

Metering mode: Pattern

[Nicozoom]

I just found out that the B+W JPG files from my GRD III just look so bad compared to my GX 100 Jpg files.
And so much because the Noise Reduction, it just don´t have the same look and it is like the grains clash together in some wierd looking unsharp something.
The look I want in my photos is not really there, so maybe if I shoot RAW and then add some noise?
But I hope it is something Ricoh will do something about.
Or maybe I will go and see how low a price I can get the GRD I for in the shop here around the corner.

[glider]

Hello Pavel,
Thank your for posting this comparison. I do not understand why Ricoh would give the GRD3 a NR off setting then add NR. Is this a known fact or is there possibly a different explanation such as the sensors? Also I am still not sure what the GRD1 versus GRD3 is capable of from in camera JPEG, given that there are also many levels of sharpening and contrast available. Could you mention how these were set up in your test? If the photos were not set to full sharp it might give a more similar result (excluding the GRD1 grain). And then there is what the GRD3 can do in RAW which is the more important question for me (I don't know if the GRD1 is capable of RAW). I would appreciate any insight you can give me on these topics.
Cheers,
Brian

[glider]

It is also interesting to see how much cleaner and more detail the GRDIII is catching at the bottom and sides of the underpass picture. There looks to be a better lens on this camera.

[Nicozoom]

@Glider, yes it is sharp all the way out to the edges!

[odklizec]

My GRDI developed nasty corner softness. So it's probably not the best example what it can do. But yes, GRDIII lens is sharp from corner to corner.

Glider, the B&W setting were exactly the same on all three cameras (Contrast +1, Sharpness 0). Increasing in camera sharpness may help with extracting a bit more details from GRDII and GRDIII photos, but it will also increase the ugly sharpening artifacts. And I don't think you wil get the same level of details as form GRDI, simply because tiny details are lost in GRDII and III JPEGs due to noise reduction.

The reason why NR OFF is not exactly NR OFF is very strange, but (in some extent) understandable. Ricoh is just scared to give general users an option to "destroy" their photos with noise If you are a professional, you should use RAW. Unfortuantely, no matter what arguments I tried, I found impossible to penetrate this Ricoh logic. They will just not allow us to turn the NR OFF in JPEG. For NR free images there is RAW. But in my opinion, there is something weird done with GRDIII RAW.

If I find some time, I may try to convert GRDI, II and III DNG to BW using Silkypix and RawTherapee. Just to see if there is any chance beat the GRDI level of details with DNG processing. I guess it may be possible with GRDII DNG, but I'm not quite sure about GRDIII DNG, which I found very hard to process with many existing RAW developers.

[glider]

Yeah, in a way its funny that we call these retractable lens "fixed". And I have always marveled at how sharp my DP1 one is corner to corner in spite of it not being like a real fixed lens. Now I am a bit worried that can change over time.

I think it is annoying that Ricoh is applying sharpening to the NR off setting. They should relabel the settings to very weak, weak and strong.

I have not played with BW much on my GRD3. From your pictures it looks like the CRD3 is applying more contrast yet still alot of the detail in the upper middle quadrant is less distinct. In color mode I find full sharp the most appealing to my sensibilities. The standard setting seems much too fuzzy and the RAWs are as well unless you apply sharpening (which Lightroom and Rawtherapee do by default). For my tastes the sharpening in cam is mild and I do not see the type of artifacts I recognize from over sharpening (i.e. introduced ugly jaggy texture) but I have not been at this long. I will run a set of jpegs in BW at multiple settings to check this out further.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. It is much appreciated!

Cheers,
Brian

[glider]

Hello Pavel,
COMMENT: POST AND LINKS CORRECTED 10/10/2009, JPEGS are now full sized and normalized to standard no contrast settings. The description of the photos is updated here. I will post a set of 100% crops shortly to make this easier to examine. Sorry for the original error.

http://picasaweb.google.com/bcc1955/RicohGRD3BWTest#

Well I did some testing with my GRD3 in BW mode today and have the results linked below (click "more info" to the right of each photo to see EXIF info and file name). You can also download the full jpeg for 100% crop exams (hit download photo, it is necessary to see the differences).

I show the following photos taken on a tripod.

1. GRD3 in camera jpeg with no sharpness and no contrast
2. GRD3 in camera jpeg with full sharpness only
3. Lightroom 2.5 grayscale with NR off
4. Lightroom 2.5 grayscale preset (sharpen is 25, 0.5, 50, 0 for amount, radius, detail, mask)
5. Lightroom 2.5 with sharpness set to 100, 1, 12, 0 (medium sharpening)
6. Lightroom 2.5 with sharpness set to 85, 0.5, 70, 10 (hard sharpening)
7. Sigma DP1 developed with SPP3.5 with no enhancement (except reducing the over exposure by -1.5)

Cheers,
Brian

[thelps]

I was convinced from the first GRD III images that Cris posted that the GRD III lens was substantially sharper.
To my eye looking at Pavels samples there does seem to be a touch more detail in the GRD I image.
I suppose any issues with processing are fixable in firmware if Ricoh can be convinced to do them?!

[glider]

So I upload some crops of the new set of in camera jpegs versus Lightroom 2.5 processed RAW to get an idea of the detail differences. The pictures are now normalized to in camera no contrast and to Lightroom standard gray scale. I did not normalize picture brightness but just went with the default settings. The Lightroom Raw and the In Camera No Sharpness No Contrast are from the identical snapshot. The full sharpness photo is a separate snapshot (I will double check this one as it appears to have a contrast difference?).

http://picasaweb.google.com/bcc1955/Cro ... RD3BWTest#